Alex Buque to start the opener

Discussion in 'Buffalo Bandits Forum' started by GoodsOnSabres, Dec 7, 2017.

  1. GoodsOnSabres

    GoodsOnSabres Member

  2. RockStar

    RockStar Well-Known Member

    used to play in a fat/old rec league with his dad, been watching him since he was an ~11 year old playing for Team Ontario in the Canadian peewee national tourney, and then again when he played for Whitby Junior A.

    wish him luck this season......except for tomorrow, and back in Toronto later.
     
  3. RockStar

    RockStar Well-Known Member



    beat goalie hit since Levis decapitated Bill McGlone
     
    k-hawksfan33 likes this.
  4. Mr Boo

    Mr Boo Active Member

    Unless you're Karsen Leung, who finished that game, played one more a month later, and will never play another lacrosse game for the rest of his life.
     
    BestSeatinHouse likes this.
  5. RockStar

    RockStar Well-Known Member

    We have all seen players get rocked that hard, and bounce back - Gabby Roe vs. JT, Dan Ladouceur versus Andy Ogilvie, Mitch Belisle vs. Jarret Park, and probably a lot of guys versus the likes of Coyle, Ogilvie, Snider, and some of the other beasts that used to patrol the shooting lanes

    Sometimes, unfortunately, it doesn't work out that way.

    I thought it was all kinds of awesome when I saw it at full speed. After dissecting it, no rule broken, but, players and insiders that I respect say it's a code issue, and, I have to agree with them. We need more open floor hits, but, I guess they need to be a bit less vigorous and more respectful than that.

    I am sorry that a star player was a permanent casualty of that. I hope Buque feels that way too.
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2017
  6. chuckster

    chuckster Well-Known Member

    How do you trade for a goalie and then not start him in the season opener? If Buque didn't start tonight, Chugger looks bad for the trade right out of the gate.
     
  7. MILLwasbetter

    MILLwasbetter Active Member

    Buque was the reason they won that game. Last year, we are down by 3 or 4 early to start that game. Cosmo may have played 1 year too long. also Bouque-Monster needs to be a thing.

    As far as the open floor hits go, if these guys wore real pads that protected them, instead of flaps of thin nothingness, maybe we would have more open floor hits and a better product. The game is much more basketbally, non contact now than anything else.
     
  8. RockStar

    RockStar Well-Known Member

    It isn't the padding that is a problem, it is the lack of padding between your brain and the inside of your skull.......As much as I liked watching old school stuff, there is not a sport in the world that is going to ratchet up the level of violence with what is known now.
     
  9. chuckster

    chuckster Well-Known Member

    I only watch the NBA during the playoffs but I can't say that basketball is truly non-contact. And RockStar is right -- with what is known about brain injuries now, all the pro sports leagues have tried to lessen the contact in the name of player safety.
     
  10. (Directly from the 2017 NLL Rule book, UNEDITED)
    "Rule 70: Illegal Body Check

    It is illegal to bodycheck an opponent from behind, above
    the shoulders or below the waist. It is legal to bodycheck
    an opponent in possession of the ball from the front or

    side, above the waist and below the shoulder. It is legal
    to bodycheck an opponent while the player leaves his
    feet to shoot, pass or catch the ball or otherwise engage
    legally in offensive play provided contact is legal as
    outlined above, and there are no other violations and the
    check is not into the boards. Officials shall consider the
    positioning of players when contact is initiated,
    specifically whether the player being checked is in a
    vulnerable and or defenseless position, which may
    include a players’ head being down or unaware of an
    impending hit, significant distance travelled by the
    player making the hit
    . An appropriate penalty for
    illegal body checking shall be assessed based on the
    severity of the illegal contact."

    (the rule book actually has that last half Bold so I have underlined the specifics)


    key words: Vulnerable, defenseless, unaware of impending hit, significant distance travelled by the player making this hit

    all 4 of these conditions are met, he had his head back for a long lead pass, caught the ball and made 2-3 steps before contact, unable to defend himself all he can do is shrug/turtle and try to brace for the impact (which is a natural human reaction to impact like that) and can be seen in the clip and distance travelled. the crease alone is 9'3", he travelled (guessing) at least 15' if not 20'+ to make the hit. MORE then enough evidence to warrant a 2 min minor.

    had the initial point of contact been the head (rather then the shoulder as it so clearly was) it would have been a match penalty as the rulebook is written,

    "77.1 MATCH PENALTY
    - A match penalty shall be assessed
    to a player who with force, strikes another player in the
    head and/or neck. The actions of the player shall be
    deemed as egregious conduct. Criteria for this penalty
    shall include some of the following but not limited to: no
    attempt to play the ball, leaving your feet to inflict more
    force, an upwards motion as opposed to a horizontal
    motion, significant distance traveled and weight transfer,
    the location of contact and the level of vision of the
    players involved."
     
  11. RockStar

    RockStar Well-Known Member

    My friend, the hit happened in 2016, and the rule was changed.

    In 2016 it was either roughing, or it was nothing. Refs on the floor called nothing, and, they weren't really wrong.
     
  12. noted,

    From the 2016 Rulebook

    Rule 85: ROUGHING


    Shall be defined as any excessively violent holding,
    pushing or punching motion with or without the glove on.
    Any deliberate or excessively violent contact or
    crosscheck by a defensive player against an offensive
    player who has established a legal screen/pick position.
    Any avoidable act on the part of a player, which is
    deliberate or excessively violent whether it be with the
    body or stick.

    Pretty sure it is still covered under this rule, yes they have "referees discretion"

    deliberate or excessively violent,
    left his crease, left his feet, causing a violent collision

    if that doesn't warrant a 2 min minor im not sure much else does,
    yes I realize its "big boy lacrosse" but a hit like that is dangerous(regardless of the outcome of Leungs career being over it is in fact a dangerous hit) and the rules are in place for players safety
     
  13. RockStar

    RockStar Well-Known Member

    Yeah,

    -there was/is no charging rule,

    -it was a frontal shoulder hit, delivered face to face to a ball carrier after the "one step" rule was satisfied

    -"Deliberate OR...." is stupid phrasing that cannot be enforced. The OR doesn't work in this case, because deliberate by itself doesn't matter....you are allowed to deliberately throw a hit in a full contact sport.

    -So, we are down to the question of whether it is "deliberate AND excessively violent", or just "excessively violent". The underlying philosophy would call for a match penalty for the first of those, a minor or major with discretion for the second.

    I think this league maybe does not have a real referee manual (I have never seen it, and no one has confirmed for me that one actually exists). So, all we have is this poorly written rulebook which contains no example situations with sample rulings and justifications, and, whatever passes for verbal direction if they actually bring refs together for clinics before or during seasons.

    So, in a full contact sport where men legally hit each other with sticks, hips, and shoulders, often at high speed........well, "excessively violent" is kind of a subjective call to ask a referee to make at full speed with no other guidance other than the ref's personal interpretation of what is excessive.

    I maintain - in 2016, this was both a valid roughing call AND a valid no call at the same time.

    The rulebook is much more clear now.
     
  14. KHawksWin2011

    KHawksWin2011 Member

    Why will he never play again? What happened to him?
     
  15. Hollywood42

    Hollywood42 Well-Known Member

    Go to the third post in this thread
     
  16. KHawksWin2011

    KHawksWin2011 Member

    Yes I saw the hit, but from what I can tell he played after that. Did it affect him somehow that I am unaware of?
     
  17. mtbf

    mtbf Well-Known Member

    Learn to read the thread
     
  18. jetman

    jetman Active Member

    I watched the hit, read the thread, but I'm still unclear why Leung isn't playing any more. Obviously it was a devastating hit and that he suffered some after-effects, but did he retire because of not being medically cleared to play or did he just decide that continuing to play just wasn't worth it? I understand that he's a financial advisor in BC, so I guess you probably need all your brain power to do your job...
     
  19. Mr Boo

    Mr Boo Active Member

    Leung retired because of the concussion he got from that hit. How much of it is due to existing symptoms and how much is due to potential future problems I don't know.
     

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