Where do you think the next two expansion franchises should be?

Discussion in 'NLL News and Rumors' started by Trenton Beisel, Dec 8, 2018.

  1. RockStar

    RockStar Well-Known Member

    thought is good on paper.....but, what if the NHL owners could invest their money into ventures that are more profitable than NLL?

    That is a long list of shtt, so......I am never surprised that some clubs are not interested;)
  2. Andrew GEA

    Andrew GEA Guest

    Like what? The NBA will only grow 2 more teams... The only other sports for an arena is, d2 and below hockey, Canadian summer basketball, indoor football, and lacrosse... I'd say the most profitable is the NLL
  3. RockStar

    RockStar Well-Known Member

    like maybe something that is not an arena sport, dude.

    the fact that they have an arena does not automatically mean it is actually worth their while to tie up funds owning and operating a team in a tier two or tier three pro sport
  4. Andrew GEA

    Andrew GEA Guest

    Arena/NHL already do non sports functions (confrence, conventions, concerts, graduations, various "shows", ect) the issue is that lost of these markets don't have enough interest to sell non sport events every day their isn't a hockey game. plus many non sports events don't even go to the NHL arena since it's so expensive. In Edmonton lots of events and big name concerts are played all over the city, particularly the shaw conference centre (10ish minute walk from Rogers place).

    Sports are more predictable economically. Cities like toronto, calgary, denver have multiple tenants for a reason.
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2019
  5. RockStar

    RockStar Well-Known Member

    two prime tenants, one major secondary tenant (Live Nation), one minor secondary tenant (the Rock) and assorted lesser tenants.

    then they have TV and media, merchandising, real estate, and Lord knows what else.

    If they thought the potential revenues from the Rock were worth the hard costs and risks, they would have made a bully offer already. The fact that they have not, tells me everything I need to know.

    Now, if they are faced with Dawick looking to move or fold and losing 9-12 booked Friday nights, that equation might change, and they might apply for a team, or try to buy the Rock. As of right now though they make their money without spending any on anything but casual arena staff and concession supplies.......they even get to sell MLSE shtt and promote their own properties to a captive and half interested audience! impossible to improve on this situation for MLSE
  6. Andrew GEA

    Andrew GEA Guest

    Doesn't change the fact that a day an arena is empty means you're losing money. Considering that lacrosse will alter the arena the least compared to indoor football and summer basketball. As for hockey AHL players have to be paid way more than NLL players. ECHL and CHL teams are usually in markets / arenas too small.

    So right now lacrosse makes that most sense to be a second or third tenant. The added bonus will be that 10 extra dates won't effect non sports events in the arena as well.
  7. RockStar

    RockStar Well-Known Member

    Well, to be perfectly fair, they are not precisely losing money, they are just failing to make as much as is theoretically possible if there are extra empty dates. These guys make money!


    Right now, with present situation, they get the rental fee (rumoured to be in the $75K range) and they get a customer base of 8 to 11K to try to sell beer, food, and schwag to.

    If they ran the team themselves, they would miss out on the $75K rental fee, and, they would be stuck with all of the risks, plus the, what? ~$150 to 200K per game in hard operating costs, and, likely not fully covering operating costs with ticket and schwag revenue.

    That, my friend, is a major, major, major swing towards the wrong side of the financial ledger, and........depending on concession revenues *might* actually be a shttier deal than just leaving the arena dark.......

    My suspicion is that
    -with luxury box sales nearly non existent for Rock games,
    -With essentially no parking receipts for MLSE for any event (they have only a tiny lot under the ACC.....$35 a car or so!!!!, but, not many spots),

    With all that.......leaving the arena dark for all nine to twelve dates, (or more realistically, selling as many of those dates as they can to someone else), is a better financial situation than running the team.

    In summary:
    -they control damned nearly every sporting event in Toronto,
    -they have more money than God,
    -they own a building that is already used for several Rock games a year,
    -I cannot imagine the Rock ever sells to anyone/anywhere for more than double the going expansion fee......and, if it came to that, MLSE could force the Rock to move and replace them with an expansion franchise at the going expansion fee.......

    .....so, despite all this, they haven't invested, like, two hockey games or less worth of revenues towards making a serious play for the Rock .......

    Brother, I know everything I need to.....it doesn't make sense, and they ain't interested :D
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2019
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  8. R.J

    R.J Guest

    Show of hands as to how many knew the Aquilini's were going to buy the Stealth.... Anyone.... ?

    I think it's hilarious that it's automatically assumed MLSE isn't interested because they're not being pricks the way Katz was.

    Also, on days where the arena isn't being used, or used for switch overs, it technically losses money as it costs money to operate it even if there's no event.
    Ziel37 likes this.
  9. RockStar

    RockStar Well-Known Member

    I think they maybe would be interested if circumstances change.

    I think they are not interested now.....at least not beyond casually scratching out numbers on the back of a cigarette pack every so often.
  10. Tom Wersderfer

    Tom Wersderfer Active Member

    Many people claimed that Comcast wasn't interested in buying the Wings team either but they were interested all along and Comcast owns them now.
  11. Vin

    Vin Well-Known Member

    I am not trying to take anything away in this, but they had a chance to buy the Wings in 2014. I know that they balked at buying then because French still wanted a stake in ownership and Comcast wanted outright complete ownership. One would have thought that they could have made him an offer he couldn't refuse. So, I guess they just said "Screw it" and paid the full expansion fee price.

    I suspect something like this may happen in Toronto.

    MLSE may not have an interest now, but they will eventually buy the Rock unless Dawick can turn things around.... or maybe Dawick moves the Rock (like French did with the Wings) and MLSE goes the expansion route.
  12. RockStar

    RockStar Well-Known Member

    That's just it......as long as Dawick is willing to buy dates, MLSE's economics are probably better than if they actually tried to own and operate a team in their big building.

    If it comes to a point where Dawick is no longer willing/able to buy dates at MLSE's big building, that's when the metrics change a bit, and, *maybe* it makes financial sense to operate a team of their own in the big building.

    As mentioned though, I am not even sure they are better off with 9-12 Rock dates......or, say, a 5-6 more LiveNation/WWE/UFC.....whatever TF.

    I am open to the possibility that leaving the fccker dark for a few nights might actually be the least worst option financially.
  13. R.J

    R.J Guest

    MLSE has a very good relationship with Jamie Dawick, so they're willing to wait is my understanding. Dawick does not want to sell at this point, and he's admitted in the past that he's received calls about the team. It's only a matter of time now IMO.
  14. AmericanRockFan

    AmericanRockFan Well-Known Member

    Is LiveNation that much of a major tenant at the arena? I don’t pay attention so I don’t know.

    The UFC is only going to come once a year, and the WWE is only coming once or twice (though they’re coming three or four times in August I think) and that’s only if they’re doing a tv show, which has been a rarity lately, otherwise they’re going to Coca-Cola Coliseum.

    All in all, buying the Rock probably isn’t the worst choice for MLSE in my opinion. In fact, they can even add a lacrosse academy to their portfolio too if they buy TRAC as part of the package.
  15. RockStar

    RockStar Well-Known Member

    I think pretty well every show that hits the arena is LiveNation.....They seem to have every promotion from the top tier arenas and stadiums right down to at least a couple of the larger club venues.

    This would be a not-trivial number of dates because Toronto gets a stop on damned near every North American tour, and most of the big shows that hit outside of summer end up at the arena.
  16. Tom Wersderfer

    Tom Wersderfer Active Member

    Also because French and his partners tried to jack up the selling price to a price that was outlandishly above the teams actual worth when Comcast showed interest in buying them.
  17. RockStar

    RockStar Well-Known Member

    I just wish the fans returned when Dawick saved the franchise from certain doom.

    99% of the way from a miraculous worst to first turnaround in the first year, and, 100% of the way in 2011.

    (Granted, except for the 2015 run, it has half-sucked each of the other years.....but, I kinda think they are turning a corner and almost there)
  18. AmericanRockFan

    AmericanRockFan Well-Known Member

    I agree. That 3-year stretch from 2010-2012, and actually a good chunk of 2013, were 3-4 of my favorite years of Rock fandom, and that's saying a lot considering how 1999-2005 played out. It's just too bad that a good chunk of the fanbase moved on sometime between 2008-2009.

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