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WHL Giants possibly relocating to the LEC....

Discussion in 'Vancouver Stealth Forum' started by Rottenrocker, Mar 12, 2016.

  1. salmonking

    salmonking New Member

    I can't believe anyone really stays away from Langley because of the bridge tolls. Free parking more than makes up for that. There is no lacrosse being played in the city. All the associations are in the burbs. The biggest minor association is Coquitlam and it only takes 15 -25 minutes to get to the LEC from there. I'm not sure why The Stealth have had such poor results drawing new fans. When I go to a game I can't believe how many people I recognize. One of the reasons the stands looks so empty even on a pretty good night is because all the long time lacrosse fans like to stand and visit with one another. In my opinion, the media coverage is not too bad.v the news shows game highlights and they often bring players and management into the studio. There are also regular large ads in The Province and they do game recaps.
    Rumour has it that the Gisnts move will be temporary and that they have plans to move to Surrey when they build their new and larger facility down by the Patullo Bridge near the sky train station.
  2. Rottenrocker

    Rottenrocker Active Member

    The LEC really is the perfect place for the Stealth in regards to the lacrosse community. If it's just temporary then fine I just hope it doesn't fudge with the 2017 season schedule too much.
  3. BClark

    BClark Member

    Not sure how the logistics would work with WHL hockey playing 41 home dates, the Rivermen would probably have to move to the Preston rink again, and the Stealth would probably be displaced due to lack of weekend nights to play in winter. The Pacific Collisium is closer to 3 of the main lax systems Coquitlam, NW, and Burnaby. with no tolls and long drives in the winter. Bring it to town and lets have a look for a year or 2 if the Giants move to Surrey, then move back.
  4. RockStar

    RockStar Well-Known Member

    That's what I figured. In Ontario, major-junior hockey is very much a Thursday through Sunday league. Bigger travel distances for WHL, so, I'm figuring similar. With this, you're likely going to find Friday and Saturday dates at the LEC are at a premium. Now, you have to think that the Giants should theoretically be on the road every second Saturday or so, so, you should be able to squeeze in 9 games.

    On the other side, Coliseum does give a bit more big league legitimacy.....if you don't have to drastically overpay for facility rent, it's maybe worth trying for two seasons.
  5. Dave S-C

    Dave S-C Active Member

    Great idea as long as moving back and forth and around doesn't end up alienating any fanbase in those locations.

    Rent will most likely be higher but it's a city-run facility (PNE) so probably not as much as a private facility, such as GM Place or whatever it is called now. With no regular tenant in the form of the Giants, the PNE might be inclined to offer cheaper than norm rent for the sake of having any sort of tenant. After all, they bent over for the Giants.

    Playing in Vancouver will help with big league perception, because Langley does not equal "big league".
  6. Dave S-C

    Dave S-C Active Member

    There is also the possibility, always a possibility in Vancouver, that the PNE just demo's the Coliseum and the enviromarist city council turns it into greenspace (or more condos for build permit $$$, LOL). How much use besides the Giants does the Coliseum get now?
  7. Rottenrocker

    Rottenrocker Active Member

    Besides the odd concert it really doesn't get a lot of use in the hockey off-season. Wouldn't surprise me if they demolished it in the next couple of years.

    Apparently the Giants/LEC thing is a "multi-year" deal. Great. :doh:
    Last edited by a moderator: May 3, 2016
  8. Vin

    Vin Well-Known Member

    Green Bay Wisconsin doesn't equal "big league" either. ;)

    Langley population (2011): 104177
    Green Bay population (2013): 104779
  9. Dave S-C

    Dave S-C Active Member

    Apparently 10 years although exit clauses for Giants.
  10. Dave S-C

    Dave S-C Active Member

    Except Green Bay isn't disguising itself as Milwaukee. Langley should just call it for what it is and call them Langley. If they want to play out in the boondocks, then don't be all ashamed of it. Even when in Everett they didn't have the gall to call themselves Seattle. (Seattle being closer to Everett than Vancouver is to Langley)
    Last edited by a moderator: May 3, 2016
  11. Rottenrocker

    Rottenrocker Active Member

    I'm not a big fan of Toigo's bullying tactics about keeping any other sports team (lacrosse) out of the Pacific Coliseum for years and now his crappy hockey team is now jamming up the works for every other team (Stealth) that plays in the LEC.

    This whole situation is bullshit.
  12. Dave S-C

    Dave S-C Active Member

    Well, to be fair, Toigo did rehabilitate what had been a white elephant, civic facility. I'll give him that credit. And the Ravens in their dying days really didn't create a whole lot of financial confidence with their non-existant non-local owner (Raj Somebody or Kal Somebody).

    While Toigo's opposition to sharing the facility was well-known off the record (after all, anyone would want to protect their investment), it probably gave the PNE an easy and convenient means to save face and back away from the Ravens - because if the team folded, the city would have most likely been on the hook for any losses via the arena.

    However this time I suspect the Stealth are in a position of strength when it comes to dealing with Toigo, as they were there first and the LEC from what I have heard were the folks who pursued the Stealth to move there.

    Really, the team that's been left high and dry is the Rivermen BCHL team.
  13. Vin

    Vin Well-Known Member

    That's entirely irrelevant to what your point was about which was "big league" corresponding to big city name.

    You need to grasp the idea of the metropolitan area names or large-area names instead of being obsessed with specific location names.

    For instance, BC Lions. They play in BC. Sure, they play in Vancouver but they could play instead in Abbotsford, but they would still go with BC and be legitimately called BC Lions, right? It's because BC applies being are larger area in which Abbotsford resides.

    For an identical reason, the Vancouver Stealth can legitimately be called that because Langley is within the larger Vancouver metropolitan area.
    And it is for that same identical reason, that it is legitimate for:
    * The Los Angeles Angels to be called Los Angeles while they play in Anaheim, CA.
    * The New York Jets/Giants to be called New York while they play in East Rutherford, NJ.
    * The Buffalo Bills to be called Buffalo while play in Orchard Park, NY.
    * The Dallas Cowboys to be called Dallas while they play in Arlington TX (closer to Fort Worth than Dallas). In fact, it perhaps would be more appropriate to call the Dallas Cowboys the Metroplex Cowboys because that is the informal name that the Dallas-Fort Worth metro area refers to itself - it's like Twin Cities for Minneapolis-Saint Paul, MN. Yet, few who live outside the Metroplex know that it's called "The Metroplex" so if the Cowboys were the Metroplex Cowboys, everyone would be like "Where the f*ck is Metroplex?" but everyone knows where Dallas is, thus Dallas Cowboys. And that's why "Vancouver" is perfectly acceptable for the Vancouver Stealth. You really need to accept the fact that "Vancouver" is more than just Vancouver, the city, but is Vancouver the metro area and Vancouver the idea. (BTW, were you bent out of shape about 2010 Winter Olympic events taking place outside of Vancouver, yet "Vancouver" was the host site for those Olympics?)

    You also need to accept a more disturbing fact: Collectively, Surrey + Langley City + Langley DM surpassed Vancouver city in population in 2012. (*) The outer areas of GVA are growing and the bulk of its population is in the outer ring of Vancouver. This is like many other metro areas in which the "suburbs" become substantial cities in their own right. This is just like why the Cowboys and Rangers play in Arlington and not Dallas proper - the population center is moving away from the core city.... and the population center of GVA is moving east of Vancouver.

    (*) According to the BC government, "Stealthville" = Surrey + Langley City + Langley DM had a population of 670605 in 2015, while Vancouver's population was only 648608. Over the past four years, the rate of population growth of Vancouver has averaged 1.16% per year but for Stealthville, it's 2.20%, almost twice the percentage rate of Vancouver. This is because, like with all metro areas, people move to where it is less congested and more affordable. The population centre of GVA is moving east... and ever closer to Langley. The WHL Vancouver Giants are aware of this fact as well; they've done some demographic analysis. They know that the hockey fans are to be found further and further out of Vancouver proper. Sure, they are getting a better arena deal going to the LEC, but they also realize the way the population is shifting.
    Last edited by a moderator: May 5, 2016
  14. Vin

    Vin Well-Known Member

    FYI, here are the fastest growing parts of GVA sorted by their growth rate from 2011 to 2015.
    [table="width: 750"]
    [tr][td]2011-2015 growth[/td][td]2015 Population[/td][td]Community[/td][/tr]
    [tr][td]+23.36%[/td][td]26941[/td][td] Unincorporated Areas[/td][/tr]
    [tr][td]+10.91%[/td][td]144668[/td][td] Coquitlam[/td][/tr]
    [tr][td]+10.01%[/td][td]116863[/td][td] Langley, District Municipality[/td][/tr]
    [tr][td]+9.84%[/td][td]54258[/td][td] North Vancouver, City of[/td][/tr]
    [tr][td]+8.98%[/td][td]526004[/td][td] Surrey[/td][/tr]
    [tr][td]+7.84%[/td][td]19652[/td][td] Pitt Meadows[/td][/tr]
    [tr][td]+7.32%[/td][td]27738[/td][td] Langley, City of[/td][/tr]
    [tr][td]+6.10%[/td][td]71665[/td][td] New Westminster[/td][/tr]
    [tr][td]+6.01%[/td][td]207773[/td][td] Richmond[/td][/tr]
    [tr][td]+5.24%[/td][td]60264[/td][td] Port Coquitlam[/td][/tr]
    [tr][td]+4.72%[/td][td]648608[/td][td] Vancouver[/td][/tr]
    [tr][td]+4.52%[/td][td]81247[/td][td] Maple Ridge[/td][/tr]
    [tr][td]+4.14%[/td][td]3546[/td][td] Bowen Island[/td][/tr]
    [tr][td]+3.92%[/td][td]238209[/td][td] Burnaby[/td][/tr]
    [tr][td]+3.89%[/td][td]2243[/td][td] Anmore[/td][/tr]
    [tr][td]+1.55%[/td][td]34554[/td][td] Port Moody[/td][/tr]
    [tr][td]0.00%[/td][td]19327[/td][td] White Rock[/td][/tr]
    [tr][td]-0.10%[/td][td]85974[/td][td] North Vancouver, District Municipality[/td][/tr]
    [tr][td]-0.71%[/td][td]100652[/td][td] Delta[/td][/tr]
    [tr][td]-1.55%[/td][td]1332[/td][td] Lions Bay[/td][/tr]
    [tr][td]-2.78%[/td][td]41728[/td][td] West Vancouver[/td][/tr]
    [tr][td]-3.41%[/td][td]623[/td][td] Belcarra[/td][/tr]
  15. GoodsOnSabres

    GoodsOnSabres Member

    I'd just be happy if there is a 2017 Stealth season.
  16. LordStanley1893

    LordStanley1893 Active Member

    I'm pulling for them to make it to at least 2018. We need a shot at that first round pick we got not being the last pick in the 1st round :p
  17. Dave S-C

    Dave S-C Active Member

    Vin... I gotta ask: have you ever been to the Vancouver area? Because I seriously doubt it, but you like to speak like an authority on the area simply via stats. Stats don't paint the picture how people living here perceive the surrounding areas.
  18. Vin

    Vin Well-Known Member

    I understand where you are coming from and was expecting this retort.

    No, I haven't been ever been to GVA (but would love to visit).

    However, I have lived in multiple large metropolitan areas throughout the United States and am 53 years old. I am well aware of demographic change patterns because of socioeconomic reasons and because of geography because I have both seen them and lived through them.

    One of those rules is that population growth for a location is like an S-curve. The upper part of an S-curve is due to the population density reaching a high-enough point that the cost to move there and join the population becomes economically prohibitive for many, thus the rate of growth is less. What this does is put outward pressure on population growth; since people cannot easily live in the core area, they move out where they can 1) afford it and 2) get more for their money. Of course, as the suburban population grows, you need infrastructure and support and, eventually, people commute less to the core city for jobs because there are plenty of jobs in the suburbs. Companies realize this too, so they move out (especially now with our Internet economy).

    Now, how that outward movement progresses also depends on physical geography and coastal cities and inland cities differ substantially on that. And coastal cities differ considerably amongst themselves based on rivers and bays and coastal mountains and international boundaries.

    For GVA at this time, the growth is both immediately north and south of the Vancouver, the city, and east. All of that is expected and the numbers provided by the BC government reflect that. Ironically, the closest analog to Vancouver that I can think of is New York because of the dominance of water and islands affecting travel (Los Angeles is a better analog for the mountains and San Diego or Buffalo are a better analog for the international boundary). And like New York's growth over 400 years, I see Vancouver evolving like this over the next few generations: the areas east of Vancouver will become like Long Island; Surrey will be like Nassau County, Langley like western Suffolk County. The Coq/PoCo area I do not know well enough to judge and don't know of a decent analog to New York. But, like you said, the Fraser River seems to be something people do not want to cross - like Long Islanders with the East River. So, the Surrey-Langley area will develop on its own just like Long Island did. In about 1 to 2 generations, the population of Surrey-Langley will near double and will be similar to Long Island or Orange County California in being bedroom communities which eventually became huge in their own right.

    As for how people who live their perceiving the area; I understand what you are saying. I looked at the roads around Langley and they remind me of Suffolk County NY 40 years ago and Saratoga County NY 30 years ago. Both of these places are now significantly more built-up and have their own economies.

    Also for how people think, what the current GVA denizens of the area think is not that important. What is important are that the people who are new to GVA who need an affordable place to live and that is going to be further out. Same with the people who have lived in Vancouver but find that they cannot afford to live there anymore. Where will they go? Out into the suburbs... like Surrey, Langley, etc. Within 100 years, there will be a continuous area of people between Vancouver and Chilliwack not unlike the Boston-DC megalopolis or Southern California or the Golden Horseshoe or the SF Bay Area. Anyway, it is this outward growth that is the trend and it is best to plan for the future based on trends, not what exists now. This is why I assert that, in the long-run, the Stealth and perhaps the WHL Giants will not, for the future, be badly positioned being in Langley.
    Last edited by a moderator: May 6, 2016
  19. Niagra Ned

    Niagra Ned Member

    What team can survive on 3500 tickets sold? Even 4000? The old arena makes some sense because there were hockey fans interested in going to games there and it serves the purpose of mid level entertainment for the surrounding community. There is an existing base of local fans who could be marketed to with the school programs in the surrounding areas. The Stealth would need to move quick to jump on that opportunity and educate the summer lacrosse people of Vancouver about the move if they did move. I would also expect Langley attendance to drop about 35 percent next year for the same reasons. The Giants will be after Stealth tire kickers in the local burbs.
  20. Rottenrocker

    Rottenrocker Active Member

    I really hope that the Giants and Stealth do a bunch of cross promotions. Given how similar box lacrosse and hockey are it wouldn't be too hard get people into the NLL.
    mooseantlers likes this.

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