Discussion in 'NLL News and Rumors' started by RockyMaivia, Dec 8, 2017.

  1. Vin

    Vin Well-Known Member

    Wasn't Veltman's last game the playoff loss in Rochester...? I think that is one reason why I made sure to see that game. I think Chad (WFinMA) sat next to me totally by coincidence.

    EDIT: No, Veltman retired in 2008.
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2017
  2. RockStar

    RockStar Well-Known Member

    it was rumoured widely that he would retire after 2007 and take the vacant Mammoth coaching job.

    looking back at 2008, that might have been a happier situation........I love the guy as a player and as a person, but it was tough to keep watching after Josh got shipped West.
    Vin likes this.
  3. AmericanRockFan

    AmericanRockFan Well-Known Member

    I think also that Veltman signed a 5 year deal before the 2008 season, which was supposed to be 1 year as a player and 4 as a coach of some sort. Didn't he get axed in 2009 with Clark et al? Or did he stick around and was let go by Dawick before 2010 and that's what led to this (alleged) feud between Veltman and Dawick?
  4. RockStar

    RockStar Well-Known Member

    i cannot remember if he was still there in 2009, got swept out with Clark et al., or just doused the dumpster with gasoline, lit a smoke, and tossed the match over his shoulder......
  5. AmericanRockFan

    AmericanRockFan Well-Known Member

    Canned 3 games into the 2009 season with Clark and Bullen. Not sure why he hates Dawick (if he even does), but that's none of my damn bees wax.

    In hindsight, I'd say the glory days of the Toronto Rock ended when Terry Sanderson got fired after the 2006 season. If not then, when Doyle was dealt just before the 2007 season.
  6. RockStar

    RockStar Well-Known Member

    those were major milestones, but, i say it jumped the shark at the 2/3 mark of 2008.

    they were 7-4 and had built to a few big divisional wins after a bit of a slow start.

    then, at the trade deadline, some effing donkey decided Ratcliff would be a better fit than, arguably, the greatest setup man ever to play the game was......
  7. RockStar

    RockStar Well-Known Member

    the impact could not have been more pronounced - goal production into the shtter, five straight losses, and missing the playoffs for the first time since 1998.
  8. RockStar

    RockStar Well-Known Member

    now, i heard a couple inside stories about Sanderson's last days before the 2006 termination, and, basically, either Sanderson had to go, or several members of the Rock's veteran corps had to go.

    Ownership made a decision.

    I think it was the wrong one.

    i think had Terry been kept and the others sent, that 2007 would have been a garbage year, and 2008 would have been the start of an exciting rebuild.

    as it was, it took until 2010 for Sanderson to start the successful rebuild ;)
  9. AmericanRockFan

    AmericanRockFan Well-Known Member

    It would've been interesting to see which veteran members of the Rock would've been shown the door had Sanderson been kept after 2006. I recall hearing that Watters and Doyle had some beef at the time, so I wonder if he still would've been shipped out had Sanderson been retained.

    In hindsight though, I think a HUGE mistake was making Clark the head coach with zero coaching experience. It probably would've been better to bring in an experienced coach and have Clark be his assistant before giving him the head coaching job.
  10. RockStar

    RockStar Well-Known Member

    I don't think the rookie coach was the problem, by itself......I mean, they were actually doing well after it was mostly "Clark's guys" in 2008......at least until the Sanderson move.

    In 2006, they were an expensive, aging, veteran team that went a disappointing 8-8, mostly due to not scoring enough, and got their arses handed to them in the first playoff round. They actually almost missed that year, I think only Philly's phutility let them leak in the back door.

    So, Sanderson or Clark/Kloepfer, it had to be a rebuild year anyway, and, some of the same vets might have been moved or cut loose to get the rebuild going. I think the Sanderson rebuild would have been better/faster, but, at the 2/3 post of 2008, the Clark rebuild actually looked sorta good too......

    I think Doyle got moved off Clark's team because of personal conflict - I figure Doyle didn't want to listen to a young coach that was no more of a leader as a player than Doyle was......and I figure Doyle told Clark exactly what he thought about certain personnel and tactical decisions and Clark didn't want to hear it.

    Would not be surprised if the same sorts of discussions preceded Sanderson's trade.......and, I guess, if it comes to that, one of the two has to go. What pissed me off about that one was that it was done mid season when things were going well. Far dumber than doing it in training camp of a rebuild year! And then there's the fact that Benesch, Fines, Thompson was a far better return for Doyle + spare parts than was Ratcliff for Sanderson.....
  11. AmericanRockFan

    AmericanRockFan Well-Known Member

    I think 2007 was the year they squeaked into the playoffs due to the teams ahead of them collapsing at the end of the year.

    2006 wasn't bad once they got past the 0-4 start and went 8-4 the rest of the way. They were definitely aging though, and it's amazing how they aged overnight practically. They actually were holding their own in the playoff game in Rochester that year until that epic fourth quarter collapse.

    Clark definitely wasn't the problem by himself in 2007, and moving Doyle definitely left a huge void because then the offense was left with Blaine Manning (who in my mind can't be the guy) and Josh Sanderson with only one elite target to pass to in Manning, plus Aaron Wilson and a much before his prime Ryan Benesch.

    My understanding is that the Doyle/Clark drama started when Doyle asked for a trade before the 2007 season to Colorado because he had a job opportunity out there. When that didn't pan out, Veltman told him that it would take a while for him to get the respect of the room back after asking out. That, coupled with Clark being hard on Doyle in practice to show that he didn't have favorites led to Doyle's departure. At least this is what I read somewhere several years ago.

    I'm amazed at how long Josh Sanderson stuck around after Terry was fired. Once Terry was fired I was certain that Josh would be dealt soon after.
  12. Vin

    Vin Well-Known Member

    Yeah, I have to admit that when Josh went to Calgary and Doyle went to the Stealth, it just seemed wrong.
    Then again, as an Attack fan, seeing Josh play for Toronto was a bit distressing. Furthermore, seeing Doyle with the Stealth aka the Attack also seemed unnerving as he was 2002 Championship MVP.
    I was so naïve back then.
    I was happy for Josh though in Toronto; to play for Terry again, be near home, and actually appreciated for his efforts unlike the couldn't-care-less attitude of most people in the Capital District market.
    I so wish there was an online version of the Albany Times-Union cover picture of Josh in an Attack uniform wound up for a shot. It really was a great picture!
    I do miss Shooter...
    I'd hug him if I could to just let him know that there were die-hard Albany Attack fans who absolutely loved his efforts. As a short guy myself, it was nice to see a fellow short guy be among the top stars of the top league in a sport.
    RockStar likes this.
  13. AmericanRockFan

    AmericanRockFan Well-Known Member

    Sanderson's effort in the 2002 NLL title game is what made me covet him as a Rock fan. The day the Rock traded for him was one of the best days of my Rock fandom life. The idea of him getting to play with Doyle and Manning was incredible, and that 2005 season was just amazing. He might've actually supplanted Manning as my favorite Rock player during his tenure with the team.
  14. RockStar

    RockStar Well-Known Member

    Want to have some fun - dig up the threads from when this happened.

    A lot of fans were PISSED that fan favourites Toll and Cosmo were sent west.
  15. AmericanRockFan

    AmericanRockFan Well-Known Member

    That's the thing, I've looked at those posts before and realized I might have literally been the one fan who was happy that Josh Sanderson was coming to town. I actually wasn't as annoyed at Pat Coyle and Steve Toll getting dealt out, but I was pretty annoyed by Anthony Cosmo being shipped out since I felt he was supposed to take Watson's job when he retired (which I thought was gonna happen long before 2011 to be honest). But I didn't really realize at the time how valuable someone like Coyle was, but I also thought that Toll was closer to the end of career than he actually was at the time so I had no beef at all with moving Toll out.
  16. RockStar

    RockStar Well-Known Member

    Toll was the one that I really did not want to see go.

    I figured Watson had at least three years left at that point, and, glad he proved me right....his last two seasons cemented his valid argument to the claim of best ever.

    At the time, it would have been nice to keep Cosmo for platooning, and the future, but, truth is, Watson was better most/all of the years that they shared starting duties, and, it almost never happens that the reason you win games is because of your second goaltender's competence.

    I liked Gibson as well, but, with Phil Sanderson and Rusty Kruger coming back, I felt that that was fair return.

    So, it comes down to Toll for Sanderson.

    A guy like Toll is hugely valuable, and, Bartley's system used him perfectly.

    This said, a top 3 lefty attacker is more valuable than any player asset in this league......except for a higher ranked top 3 lefty. After Gary Gait retired, I had Sanderson and Doyle as either 3 or 4 in the league behind Tavares and Grant.

    So, losing Toll hurt, but, Sanderson revamped the defensive scheme, and, with the league leading offence, plus Watson as last line, it wasn't that hard to make it good enough.
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2017
  17. Vin

    Vin Well-Known Member

    *sigh* They are all gone now. Surely a sign that we are living in dark times.
  18. AmericanRockFan

    AmericanRockFan Well-Known Member

    The thing for me about Steve Toll was that it was before I fully appreciated the transition game, so I just saw that his offensive production was dropping and figured "meh whatevs" at the time of his trading. Had NLLTV been around and I had more than just stats and boxscores to go by, I might have been more disappointed to see him go.
  19. AmericanRockFan

    AmericanRockFan Well-Known Member

    Too bad there's not a way to know you're truly in the good old days before you've actually left them.
  20. RockStar

    RockStar Well-Known Member

    What I remember was that Toll was usually assigned to defend the weakest or slowest attacker on the floor. That left him a little bit free to cheat, and slide to help other D men, knock down passes, chase down loose balls, or just take off when the shot or turnover was evident. With the old rules about passing back to the crease, the hard-handed rock D men didn't even have to scoop the ball......just flick it into Watson's crease, and, then Watson just had to air it out and put it in front of Toll at half.

    The other place he was heavily used and valuable was on the faceoff crew.....getting quick pressure on someone to knock the ball loose, or finding the ball. Rock never had great faceoff numbers, but, they had great "coming up with the ball even though the other guy won the faceoff" numbers.

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